Episode 112: Leadership and Management in Modern Enterprises
26th May, 2025
In this episode of the Financial Fofu Podcast, Trudi Cowan and Sarah Eifermann discuss the evolving nature of leadership and management in modern enterprises. They explore the qualities of effective leaders, the importance of empathetic communication, and the distinction between leadership and management roles. The conversation emphasises the need for trust, transparency, and the ability to make difficult decisions with empathy. They also touch on the changing expectations of employees and the importance of continuous improvement and engagement in the workplace.
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Podcast Transcript Available Here
Trudi Cowan (00:09.051)
Welcome everyone to another episode of the Financial Fofu Podcast.
Sarah Eifermann (00:14.03)
Hello, hello. We have an interesting episode today. No one wanted to be our guest, so you just got us.
Trudi Cowan (00:17.851)
We do.
So you gotta hear our thoughts on leadership and management.
Sarah Eifermann (00:24.323)
Yeah.
Yeah, so in modern enterprise, it looks like to be effectively a quality leader and how it's changed from what it used to be. It's what we used to think was a good leader is no longer the same thing when we look at businesses.
Trudi Cowan (00:44.177)
Well, I think back in the day, a leader was probably very autocratic and you do what I say type of person, weren't they?
Sarah Eifermann (00:54.092)
Yeah, hierarchical model, which still exists to a certain extent, but the people skills requirement has changed quite drastically along with the generational expectations of people, people movements. So.
Trudi Cowan (01:02.403)
Hahaha!
Trudi Cowan (01:14.553)
Yes they have. So tell us Sarah what do you consider is a modern leader these days? What are some of the qualities that we might find in good leaders?
Sarah Eifermann (01:27.618)
Depends which train of thought that you go on and how you view life. But for me personally, the main skill that I look is an ability to lead and direct others through empathetic communication styles. So being able to utilize those business acumen gauge categories and use your foresight, your broad scanning, your strategic thinking.
to be able to see what's coming down the pipeline before it's there and adjust and be agile. mean, agile is a type of leadership that's touted around. And again, I just see Ross from Friends yelling pivot. But yeah, for me, it's really about empathetic communication styles. And you can still be director-torial, but with empathy and still achieve the same outcomes.
noting that people and their expectations of what they want to be on the receiving end and how they need to be led have changed. The days are just telling someone to do it because it's your job.
Trudi Cowan (02:34.769)
Yep.
Sarah Eifermann (02:39.992)
don't exist anymore.
Trudi Cowan (02:41.853)
think that there's a distinction between leading someone and managing someone. think a leader is not the person that's sitting there going Sarah I need you to do these five things today and you have to them done by this dadadada. Like that's someone that's helping you to manage your workflow. That's not a leader, a leader is more about I guess empowering you to do your job and your role and
Sarah Eifermann (02:45.324)
Yes, that's exactly what today's about,
Sarah Eifermann (03:04.408)
Yes.
Trudi Cowan (03:05.297)
offer your opinions and put your own skills into that role and do it to your best capabilities rather than, I suppose, being in the nitty gritty of what are the tasks that you need to get done.
Sarah Eifermann (03:11.084)
and some-
Some people are not good leaders. They might be okay managers, but they're not good leaders. And some might be great leaders and terrible managers. So finding people in those roles to fulfill both sides of that equation, if that's what the role requires, can be quite challenging and it can lack foresight on the operational controls.
Trudi Cowan (03:20.827)
Mm-hmm.
Trudi Cowan (03:25.872)
Yep.
Sarah Eifermann (03:41.708)
decision-making for the person for that job because perhaps you need someone that's more invested in people and culture than managing workflows and having a good look at your current business set up. If you are trying to wear all hats as business owner, you're trying to be the leader and the manager and maybe that's not working.
Trudi Cowan (04:00.633)
Yep. Yeah. And I think as well, if you look at a lot of large organizations, they tend to promote based on technical skill as well. You're doing really well in your job, therefore we're going to promote you and they end up in these managerial and leadership type roles, but not necessarily having the skills or being given the education to have those skills. So there definitely is a difference between someone who's very technically, as you say, has those people skills.
Sarah Eifermann (04:10.734)
Okay.
Sarah Eifermann (04:16.216)
Yes.
No.
Sarah Eifermann (04:23.97)
Yeah, so leaders, yeah, leaders look to vision. They inspire people, you know, they are the ones that driving change and innovation. always looking for new ways to bring everyone together and forward at the same time. And that where next is the what they're chasing and the why of why we do it as opposed to this is what has to happen.
with no explanation around it. so leadership is a very difficult hat to wear in business, especially if you're a one or a two man show, or you're a smaller business with a couple of crews, especially in a trade based business, for example, where you're the leader and then you're the manager. And I often see and coach businesses where the tradie sees themselves as the leader.
Trudi Cowan (05:03.365)
Hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (05:21.634)
And then the wife gets left with the roles of the manager. And so he gets the fun credit and she's just constantly chasing to get things done. And that creates a dichotomy of energy exchange and expectations and potentially resentment. it's really understanding the differences in the two roles being that leadership is about where you're going and management being about
Trudi Cowan (05:29.627)
Mm-hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (05:51.202)
how you get there and the things like the planning, the organizing, the culture that leads to that, the coordination, the consistency, the stability, job roles, position descriptions, the execution, the structure, like they're very different things but some people can wear those hats and others can't.
Trudi Cowan (05:53.105)
execute.
Trudi Cowan (06:09.169)
But they do overlap in some areas, both have a lot of decision making in them, both require you have really good communication skills. Both are really essential within a business to ensure your business does have good performance and success. Not necessarily needing to be in the same person, but you do need to have a leader and a manager within your business.
Sarah Eifermann (06:13.484)
Yes.
Sarah Eifermann (06:19.052)
Yes.
Sarah Eifermann (06:32.664)
They are two facets of your business that you can't ignore. If you get lucky, you get a person that can do both and do both well, but they are becoming rarer and rarer. We know that we've talked about this in our previous episodes, like the expectations of work-life balance have changed, the expectations of what you owe your employer have changed. And so finding people that are actually invested in your business or your company,
Trudi Cowan (06:54.691)
yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (07:02.51)
If you're a leader of a business rather than the owner, they're very different things than what they used to be.
Trudi Cowan (07:10.255)
I mean, being a leader in this environment where there's lots of people working from home, remote workforces or hybrids, that would be a very different situation to being a leader in a business where everyone's on site every day.
Sarah Eifermann (07:22.508)
Yes, absolutely. so managing the changing nature of workplaces is again, both hats would wear, you know, would deal with that role. so, you know, Trudy, you've worked in large organization. You work for Deloitte for how many years? Ten years. There's a few years ago now. But what did you see in terms of?
Trudi Cowan (07:29.627)
you
Trudi Cowan (07:42.129)
Just over ten.
Trudi Cowan (07:46.629)
Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (07:50.284)
the good managers versus the good leaders or vice versa.
Trudi Cowan (07:54.545)
I think in both cases, good leaders and good managers had trust in their team and their team's ability. don't think anyone likes to be micro managed and have someone in every single little detail of it that they wanted to do. So I think trust is really a really important aspect, which has to be earned by the staff as well. But I think that is really important in your roles. And I think good leaders, as you say, they did inspire you to
Sarah Eifermann (08:05.208)
Mm-hmm.
Trudi Cowan (08:24.315)
bring your best and to voice your opinions and to be involved and stretch yourself and learn and grow. Whereas the good managers were more focused on you, I guess, achieving within your role and getting your daily tasks completed and supporting the business, I guess, objectives at that, I guess, core daily level.
Sarah Eifermann (08:48.3)
Yeah. And again, if you get the wrong person for the role, it makes it really tough to deliver those beneficial outcomes. So what do we look at if we look at for terms of qualities that we're looking for, personality traits, those core functional things that an effective leader requires to really deliver?
Trudi Cowan (08:53.521)
Mm-hmm.
Trudi Cowan (09:11.953)
Well, if I look at some of the good, you know, I've had good managers and bad managers, I'm sure everybody has, you know, the good ones are people that are approachable.
Sarah Eifermann (09:19.918)
Yeah.
Trudi Cowan (09:23.119)
that do give you feedback about its constructive not criticism.
Sarah Eifermann (09:27.502)
Operate with some emotional intelligence.
Trudi Cowan (09:30.457)
Yeah, definitely have some emotional talent and people skills and know how to engage with you on that personal level as well as the business level.
Sarah Eifermann (09:40.662)
What about like we talked earlier with the business acumen gauge, like the strategic thinking requirements.
Trudi Cowan (09:45.229)
Thank you. Well done in the lead. We've definitely got to have that strategic. Thank you.
Sarah Eifermann (09:49.272)
Those first four categories really relate to like the operational side of a quality leader. If you can't, if you don't have the foresight, the broad scanning, the strategic thinking, you know, how do you actually provide leadership?
Trudi Cowan (09:56.945)
to
Trudi Cowan (10:06.127)
Yeah. And again, if I reflect back on my experiences, you know, there were people that I worked for that were very focused on, I need to make this month's versus others that were very focused, more focused on for the year we want to achieve this. And what I'd really like to do within the business to grow or to do something different is this. And they're thinking more beyond just that monthly meeting that monthly budget target. They're thinking about how to improve the business.
improve the services to their customers, improve the environment for their employees.
Sarah Eifermann (10:41.39)
And that translates directly into the type of mentoring, coaching, strategy work that I do with my business owners that think they're leading their business, but they're not because they're so focused on the short sighted position. You know, I just had this conversation about a client of mine that continually makes decisions every six months, but in the entire time that I've known him, which is like 10 years.
Trudi Cowan (10:47.353)
Yes. definitely.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (11:09.386)
I've never seen a specific direction of where he's going. And so a new idea pops up and he latches onto it because he likes the idea of it. But the moment you suggest to him that he does some planning for the future, he's not interested. So is he really leading his business or is he just swimming with the business?
Trudi Cowan (11:18.449)
Thank
yet.
Trudi Cowan (11:32.069)
think we all have moments where we are just swimming, whether it's a busy period of the year or just you've got other things going on and for a moment all you can think about is that immediate aspect. But it's the ability to, guess, pull yourself out of that and go, hang on, I've got all these other things that I need to consider as well to ensure my business is successful.
Sarah Eifermann (11:46.819)
Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (11:50.275)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, agreed, agreed. So if we were to look at that then, given that it's now 2025, noting that things have changed, there's been generational change, there's been a difference in expectations, like even like we talked about workplace has actually changed. And we talked about this at conference, I was on conference last week for finance broking and how, you know, not so much for brokers per se, but in institution within the lenders.
Trudi Cowan (12:10.694)
Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (12:22.222)
You know, they're on a three-two split between home, working from home and working in the office or being on the road and the expectations around that. What do we need to look at in terms of management practices that still allow for leadership to be engendered in culture of organizations?
Trudi Cowan (12:42.211)
lead by example is probably a really good one.
Sarah Eifermann (12:46.904)
So that's one of the ancient ones that hasn't changed, that's still relevant.
Trudi Cowan (12:49.821)
And it doesn't change. think even, you know, if you're expecting people to be in the office two days a week or three days a week, and you as the leader are not actually practicing what you preach, then why do you think that your team is going to want to be in there if you're not doing it also? Real example, but you know, you do have to lead. That doesn't change. You still need maybe how you're leading is changing, but you still have to lead by example and set the tone for your business.
Sarah Eifermann (13:04.959)
Yeah, exactly.
Sarah Eifermann (13:10.328)
practice.
Sarah Eifermann (13:18.958)
Practice what you preach as well. can't expect people to do something that you wouldn't do yourself. That's a very basic leadership requirement is that if you're not prepared to get your feet dirty or whatever it is, you're not leading, you're managing people. So being able to recognize the difference. One's also around decision-making, like that autocratic decision-making that you started with at the start of our episode that comes into play. You know, the new buzzword is decentralized. Everything's decentralized.
Trudi Cowan (13:20.206)
you
Trudi Cowan (13:40.997)
Yep.
Sarah Eifermann (13:47.352)
But maybe that's just sharing the load and empowering your staff to use their intuition, but also their skill sets to make decisions that they feel are valid and giving them a chance to work through whether or not it works before you say no and shut it down. So that leading by example, but then learning through experience in decision-making can be really important if you want the team and the culture.
Trudi Cowan (14:11.621)
Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (14:16.632)
to function collectively and healthily, you need to give them a chance to actually demonstrate capacity. And a lot of people are losing stuff. I literally was just reading a post on LinkedIn about why top leaders leave and it's like ignoring data that's presented to them or ignoring suggestions around change management and outcomes that go through it. There was a list of like 10 different things and.
Trudi Cowan (14:18.811)
Hmm.
Sarah Eifermann (14:42.978)
those ones were up the top. I just thought it's so interesting that in this day and age when the cost of recruitment is so high that we're losing good leaders because they're not being heard.
Trudi Cowan (14:48.655)
Hmmmm
Trudi Cowan (14:53.713)
And I think maybe that also comes down to another aspect of leadership is that a business can have more than one leader and different types of leaders. You know, it obviously depends on the size of your organization. But, you know, let's take a big bank, for example, NAB doesn't just have a CEO and that's the only leader in the business. They would have a bunch of different leaders at all different levels to actually be empowering the teams that they're working.
Sarah Eifermann (15:20.76)
Yes, higher up.
Trudi Cowan (15:20.911)
within. So as you say, you're not giving some of those leaders at different levels the opportunity to actually be making decisions for their team and around their team and the work that they're actually working on, then that's when you are going to lose them to someone else that will give them those opportunities.
Sarah Eifermann (15:33.155)
Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (15:36.792)
What about things like opportunities for continuous improvement and up-skilling to develop capacity and capabilities in roles, right? I know I hear a lot, well, there's no room for me to move in this organization, so I'm going to go elsewhere. Perhaps it's not the position with the title that they're looking for, but they're looking for the challenge of learning new things.
Trudi Cowan (15:57.007)
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, we all want new things. That's what keeps our brains interested. And taken away is the
Sarah Eifermann (16:02.232)
ticking along. Yeah. I mean, that's why I love new clients, right? Because each new client bring their own unique set of challenges. Some things may be consistent. Other things may be similar, but not quite the same. But it's the changing landscape that allows me to really think and strategize and go, well, this is what we can do for you. And this is how we move forward in the pathway. And that person needs a referral to here to get better advice on
you know, XYZ or whatever the outcome is. So.
Trudi Cowan (16:34.299)
characteristic of leadership that I don't think has ever changed is that they need to be really great communicators and they need to communicate very clearly and regularly. I think what has changed is how we communicate. know, back in the day it might have been an office-wide meeting that everyone got in a room and the leaders presented, you know, their ideas. Whereas now it's more likely to be an email or a recorded video or something of that nature.
Sarah Eifermann (16:45.795)
Yes?
Sarah Eifermann (17:02.126)
I also feel though with, know, I've said this before, we are the most connected we've ever been as a society and we're the most disconnected. And a lot of times I'm experiencing in both corporate institution, but also government organisation is this desire to not disseminate and share information because they think they know better.
So rather than the transparency and the accountability that comes with just telling it how it is, they try and hide or sway the facts to suit an agenda that they're driving. And all it does is completely undermine their trust and their authority. You can see that with a lot of the protests that are happening at the moment around the country, but specifically in Victoria, like the changes with the
Trudi Cowan (17:27.727)
Yeah.
Trudi Cowan (17:32.945)
and
Trudi Cowan (17:39.921)
you
Sarah Eifermann (17:57.102)
fire services levy and the way that's been pushed through has a, it just, it's that continual undermining. Whereas if they had been more transparent about why they were doing it, still might not have people agree with it, but there wouldn't be as much of an uproar. And if they didn't ram it through the house, which they did with the crossbench, again, there'd been more consultation, you know, that effective communication. I mean, that's just one example on a broader scale, but
Trudi Cowan (18:21.617)
to the place.
Sarah Eifermann (18:26.922)
I feel like there's been this change that says, don't need to have a say, we're just going to do it whether you like it or not. And then we deal with the consequences rather than proactively saying, this is the problem. This is what we think is the solution. What are your thoughts on that? Let's get some feedback. Now we're moving forward with this solution.
Trudi Cowan (18:46.031)
Yeah, and I guess in the context of if there is an issue in your business, if you don't communicate with your staff about the potential solutions and the potential downside, if they don't get on board with the solutions, then that's going to cause you problems as well. Like if you're thinking a situation where maybe a business is not doing so well, if you're not communicating with your team, well, the plan is we need to do X, Y and Z. And if we don't do X, Y and Z, unfortunately, we're probably going to have to let some people go.
Sarah Eifermann (18:57.698)
Yeah, that's right.
Sarah Eifermann (19:11.64)
That's right. And if you don't do it.
Trudi Cowan (19:12.561)
then they don't know, they don't know that they're doing the XYZ. Whereas if you make that really clear to them and they still don't get on board, well, if you're have to let someone go, do think that makes it really easy decision? Do you let go of the one who didn't get on board or do you let go of the ones that did?
Sarah Eifermann (19:17.474)
Yeah.
That's right.
Sarah Eifermann (19:29.006)
Yeah, completely. And if you think by not getting on board, you're saving your job. I've heard that recently. my trouble may be made redundant by us doing that. So I don't want to do it anymore. And I'm like, no, we've got plans for you just in a slightly different sphere, which will give you the training, the challenges, the excitement of being at work that will remove the overwhelm, remove the overwork.
Trudi Cowan (19:34.865)
Mm.
Sarah Eifermann (19:55.566)
that you're currently telling us that you're experiencing, but you are the roadblock to allowing that to occur. If you don't move, what do you think is going to happen? Like, even though the nature of employee-employer relationship has changed, that doesn't mean that the employer is there to fund your entire existence. I think it's often forgotten and business owners are expected to just...
Trudi Cowan (20:11.248)
Yeah.
Sarah Eifermann (20:21.762)
take it on board. had this conversation with someone literally just before this podcast about rental properties and the expectation of small, you know, investors to just where the cost of rising rents are rising in interest rates. And at the end of the day, if you can't afford to do that as an investor, you know, your mom and dad investor with one property, you sell that property and then what happens to renters? They don't have a house that's easily available. Supply demand issues, correct? It's the same thing in employment, right? Like
Trudi Cowan (20:45.009)
That's That's the way to
Sarah Eifermann (20:52.106)
Our employers are there to make money. They're there to fund their lifestyle. And if they're not able to do it and you're not helping them to do it, do you need to be there? And you and I were talking about this last week, has the labor market started to switch a little bit? And I think it has. There are more people looking for work than there were six months ago for whatever reason.
Trudi Cowan (21:01.189)
Yeah. Yeah.
Trudi Cowan (21:07.62)
Mmm.
I think it's happening.
Yeah. And I think that businesses are being a little bit more picky as to who they employ. And in a small business context, whether they take them on as a full time or whether they just start at a part time or a casual arrangement, people are definitely being a little bit more cautious.
Sarah Eifermann (21:26.894)
Correct.
Sarah Eifermann (21:34.584)
Well, I mean, that's a challenge that is to face a modern enterprise in terms of your staff management and load, especially if you're in a weather affected area. And for anyone wondering who that is, that's the entire country, like whether it's drought or whether it's floods and fire, like
Trudi Cowan (21:46.327)
You
Trudi Cowan (21:50.607)
We live in Australia, we're definitely weather affected.
Sarah Eifermann (21:53.11)
Right? you know, again, I have these conversations regularly with my clients about how do we manage to keep the business trading? What are our options to keep the business profitable so it can keep trading and pay its staff? Like there is no value in the business not being profitable. Despite what you feel about the business's right to earn an income, that's why you're actually there. And small businesses pretty much keep this country running. So
If there is change resistance to new systems and processes or any of a plethora of other things that are occurring, it might be simply changing venue. We're going to downsize our factory and move 10 meters up, 10 minutes up the road. But that 10 minutes might take you 10 minutes more to get to work. Therefore, you don't want to go. So you're to try and sabotage the whole process. It's not going to work in your favor because we're five plus years into what you would say are hard times.
And the people that have been really trying to stay buoyant and positive in their culture are a jack. So expect some pushback from your business leaders or your employers, especially if the labour market is turning, which means that jobs are going to become scarce. Good paying quality jobs are going to become scarce.
Trudi Cowan (23:09.285)
And I think you're touching on another important, I guess, trait of leaders is that they do make the hard decisions. And that's their job, is to make those hard decisions and to make them with empathy, make them with clear communication as to why the change and the decision is necessary, and then manage your business through the process of that change. But making those hard decisions is part of being a good leader.
Sarah Eifermann (23:14.456)
That's right.
Yeah, you can make them with empathy.
Sarah Eifermann (23:35.564)
Yeah, and so if you are looking to step up into a leadership role and you want to learn or have some resources to move forward, one thing I highly recommend is business acumen gauge. We've got a couple of podcasts on that and unpacking it. And it is sort of scattered throughout the course that we have to learn about the facets of doing business. And I recommend that all business leaders or people that want to be business leaders, they might not be business owners.
They do the Better Business Owners course because it actually teaches them what are the components that are required to be a successful leader in running a business and that's a good place to start. Otherwise, Trudy, what would you suggest if someone was wanting to be a leader right now?
Trudi Cowan (24:16.049)
look at themselves and actually start to think about their own practices. Are you the person that's looking at the one month budget or are you the person that's actually thinking beyond that about where you want your business to be in 12 months and what are the things that you want to, tasks you want to achieve and grow and different opportunities that you're going to take up. That's one thing though, which person are you and do you need to be more of one than the other?
Sarah Eifermann (24:42.808)
Yeah.
Trudi Cowan (24:43.043)
I think self-reflection is definitely a good place to start. And then the second place that I would be going beyond, I guess, the resources that you've already mentioned is looking online for some tools. There's so many books out there about from written by great leaders. There's so many online tools for, you know, what are some of the tips for highly effective people and highly, you know, strong leaders.
Sarah Eifermann (25:03.352)
Yes.
Trudi Cowan (25:12.709)
Find a mentor and someone that can help you to improve those skills in yourself.
Sarah Eifermann (25:18.764)
I think as well, like there's a lot of personality tests to see whether you have the capacity to take on a leadership role rather than a management role. And the big one that's coming through is human design. So human design, if you're not aware, it's a combination of a couple of modalities, astrology, a few other ways. it's effectively, I use them as personality tests to get a real understanding of your personality traits and the impact that they have on how you then operate in life, in business.
and in your job position. So that's another way you can get your chart read by a human design reader. I recommend RISE Human Design. She's based out of Northern Rivers, Mid-North Coast, Coffs Harbour region. But there's heaps of people that could read your chart and give you an unpack and an understanding of what that looks like for you. So yeah, lovely.
Trudi Cowan (26:12.609)
Thank you everyone for joining us. We're about halfway through the season. Good over half. We've got lots more fabulous topics and hopefully a couple of guests in the second half as well for it. So please stay tuned.
Sarah Eifermann (26:17.41)
Bit over. Come on.
Sarah Eifermann (26:28.91)
If you know anyone you think should be a guest on our podcast, send us a message on socials.
Trudi Cowan (26:33.563)
Definitely. Thanks everyone. Bye.
Sarah Eifermann (26:34.904)
Alright guys, until next time. Bye!